This game is no where near as good as the Original GW.

[sorudo]

I hope they don't take that suggestion.

If there are skills that are unused, or not useful, they have ways to find out. And then, they can balance or change those skills. There's really no point starting from scratch.

and what happened last time?
exactly, they supposedly balanced the unused skills and made them way to powerful, then they change it and made them useless again.
last time they changed just one profession they changed the way ele skills work and look how it ended up, most skills that never had exhaustion but now do are not used anymore and allot of good projectile skills are now hexes, which can't be used against spirits.
if they instead put everything on zero and start balancing the skills from the ground up then they can balance them allot easier, it takes a bit more time and effort but it gives them the ability to even out the bumps.

[Alaris]

Your evidence for "starting from scratch is better than balance what is not balanced right" is that sometimes they over-balance or under-balance things?!? Really?

I have news for you. Starting from scratch will lead you to Prophecies when it was in beta, at best. Rose-tinted glasses aside, I don't think people would consider that balanced by today's standards.

Besides, you don't even seem to have a metric for what you'd consider "balanced", much less one that most people would agree on. Because "balance" not only means "equally strong" but also "with the right ratios to create the desired experience". If you like ranged combat, you might underpower melee. Or if you really like your necro, you might end up making necro skills too strong so playing anything else is moot. And if you like easy loot, you might make drop rates really high which will destroy the economy but who cares you got what you wanted... then wonder why a lot of players have left the game.

That takes a lot of trial and error in a complex system like this because a mathematical solution will only get you so close to your destination. That trial and error is easier when you have a player population giving you tons of data to work with. And it's done in incremental steps.

I really, really don't see how starting from scratch would help.

[Nemeon Lion]

Who wants that? Or do you mean that if people don't want the GW2, they must want the GW1 system as it is right now without any changes?

Huh.....*looks at past posts of various people in this thread*.... are you seriously asking that? GW1 system WAS screwed up due to various reasons, power-creep and lack of usefull skills being the 2 most important ones.

So yes, those people that advocate the GW1 skill system instead of GW2's while saying things like "lack of customization" have no idea what they want.

Help them see their error. Don't just declare "You're wrong, feel ashamed and accept my ultimate authority.". Give them the tools necessary to realize that they're doing something wrong.

O'rly? Just take a look at this thread. Various people have been trying to prove to others how the GW2 system is actually superior on multiple fronts to the GW1 system. How many of the original posters saw the error of their ways? Thought so.

Just face it, there are people out there that actually BELEIVE that their unique snowflake was godly. There are people out there that accept NOTHING ELSE except what they want. It's pointless to waste time and resources on those people because it will not work. GW1 was the proof of that, everyone had access to tons of guides build sites and videos showcasing the game's mechanics, high-level matches and peer-to-peer knowledge. Yet people still managed to be subborn and pridefull because they couldn't accept that the build they came up with isn't good.

If needs be, let them rund against a wall until they realize they can't run through it. But don't put blinders on them and a leash to lead them around the wall.

No.

I don't want to waste my increasingly small gaming time with people that continue to bring Firestorm on their warriors because they "think it's cool". THK was horrible at launch because of that, and while some people think it was a great way to prevent bad players from reaching the end of the game it was nothing more than a bandaid to an existing problem, which is how bad the player's judgement was when building skills.

Are there really less horrible builds in GW2? Apart from the partial inability to create them, I mean. Any weapon combination by definition must be good. But the traits?

Yes, there are much less horrible builds but don't misunderstand, you can still make a bad build, however the weapon skills ensure you can't make an horrible build so you're at least partially effective.

How exactly do traits work? Where do I see the effect they're supposed to have?
Spent a point wrong? -> Redo from scratch and pay for it.

If a trait says "apply bleed on crit" it usually means you apply a bleed on a crit. I don't know what you mean at all cosidering most traits are self-explanatory. If you want in-depth information about each of them (how long is the bleed, how many stacks are applied, etc) you might need to either experiment (which you can do for free in the Mists btw, so don't complain about costs) or you search the intarwebz.

I think I might have spend my trait points unwisely - I'm not sure what to do. Spend a not inconsiderable sum of money to try again?(*) Or wait until I need to buy the next trait book, which will reset them anyway?
Since I don't really know what effect - if at all - they have, I simply might not bother.

First, the re-spec cost is pathetic. 3s50c is the equivalent of basically a teleport at lvl 80. So you're saying you pay the teleport but can't pay a single-time re-spec? Cool story.

Second, if you don't know the effect it's because you don't feel like knowing. Did you even read the traits? You do realize you can check out each trait's description before you even unlock its tier with the books right?[

<snip>

You know this thread has exhausted all possible forms of logical debate and posting when shawn posts a mother of 2 response. Don't mind me, I'll just go back to my Batcave riding my Batmobile while drinking Everlasting Plush Griffon tonics to forget I even exist.

[sorudo]

Your evidence for "starting from scratch is better than balance what is not balanced right" is that sometimes they over-balance or under-balance things?!? Really?

I have news for you. Starting from scratch will lead you to Prophecies when it was in beta, at best. Rose-tinted glasses aside, I don't think people would consider that balanced by today's standards.

Besides, you don't even seem to have a metric for what you'd consider "balanced", much less one that most people would agree on. Because "balance" not only means "equally strong" but also "with the right ratios to create the desired experience". If you like ranged combat, you might underpower melee. Or if you really like your necro, you might end up making necro skills too strong so playing anything else is moot. And if you like easy loot, you might make drop rates really high which will destroy the economy but who cares you got what you wanted... then wonder why a lot of players have left the game.

That takes a lot of trial and error in a complex system like this because a mathematical solution will only get you so close to your destination. That trial and error is easier when you have a player population giving you tons of data to work with. And it's done in incremental steps.

I really, really don't see how starting from scratch would help.

nice bla bla bla speach, allot of "you know nothing" but no "i know a better idea".
try to come up with something instead of completely talk someone down, you're older then my yet you talk to ppl like you're a kid who wants his way.

[Alaris]

allot of "you know nothing" but no "i know a better idea".

If you ignore the parts where I mention:

1) balancing is an iterative process
2) have metrics for which skills are used, and which are used in efficient builds (i.e. builds that get objectives completed efficiently)
3) keep in mind that balance is across melee vs ranged, dungeon vs PvP vs PvE, single-player vs team, etc
4) there has to be something for casuals and hardcores as well

Sure, then I don't offer better ideas.

[shawn]

You know this thread has exhausted all possible forms of logical debate and posting when shawn posts a mother of 2 response.

Well seeing as three or four posts were just brushed off as pure nonsense by mediocre pvers, you're right, thread over. I'm not a mod of this forum though, so I'll let them do their thing. In the meantime, admin hat off, shawn hat on.

nice bla bla bla speach, allot of "you know nothing" but no "i know a better idea".
try to come up with something instead of completely talk someone down, you're older then my yet you talk to ppl like you're a kid who wants his way.

You know what? I don't try to talk about balance when it comes to Starcraft 2, Dota 2, or League of Legends, because I ****ing suck at those games. And I don't tell my doctor how to do his job, because I haven't gone to medical school. And I don't tell my electrician how to wire the house, because I didn't take electrical.

So why do you insist on talking about balance when it comes to gw? Last I checked you weren't in alpha, nor were you in any top 100 guild. And yet you continually get offended when no one takes you seriously. It's getting old.

[shadowhand]

Now I want dual profession in GW2. Thanks Shawn.

You can make any profession better by adding mesmer clones, necro summons, warrior weapons, guardian bubbles, thief shadowsteps, engineer kits, or elementalist attunements. Or ranger... whatever rangers do.

Pets.

All professions should have access to ranger pets. :/

(Yes, I know you weren't serious, but I'll type this disclaimer anyway because for some reason everyone is super tense and uber-serious lately.)

[Raye]

I think this thread has become mostly sarcasm and bickering by now. I therefore made an executive decision to close it out. I feel like we've discussed everything that needed to be discussed on this topic.

-Raye

Since I'm not the General Discussion Mod... I'll leave it up to Mal or Zero to re-open this thread if they want to.