What are some ways Pistol/Pistol can be made favorable?

[shawn]

Now we're talking. I was starting to remember why people don't have balance discussions here, and thinking the consensus was "I use pistols so I don't see why they should be buffed."

[Alaris]

Pfft. Just because things are used, doesn't mean they are good, or better than the alternatives.

[Fluffball]

Now we're talking. I was starting to remember why people don't have balance discussions here, and thinking the consensus was "I use pistols so I don't see why they should be buffed."

Or cold hard numbers, either way. P/P is infinitely better than shortbow for "big" monsters. The ones without the boss attribute (determined or something?) you can interrupt, keep permanently blinded, keep near max stacks of vulnerability, or some combo of these. Most monsters in dungeons fall in to that category. The ones with the boss attribute you can still keep solid single target damage or vulnerability on.

In general PvE, take a typical champ fight. I often run in to group events where for some god awful reason the champ doesn't have 25 stacks of vulnerability on it. If that's the case, it will be faster to completely de-aggro, switch to pistols and re-engage than it will be to use a shortbow. A ranged application of 25% damage boost to 15 players is gigantic and will vastly outweigh any extra condition damage a shortbow can put on it.

Shawn you've said before you don't run dungeons; run some before you go talking smack on the 3 party support skills and possibility of crippling P/P bring. I often switch to the crippling trait if I break out the pistols because I already have the points invested. It's worth manually changing ranged weapons in dungeons to deal with the situation.

If this thread is just about the fact that P/P is bad for solo PvE, then I agree, but there's also no point in talking balance for solo PvE. Then your point about people liking to use the Unload skill loses relevance because they're having fun using P/P in solo PvE.

[Raye]

Shawn runs dungeons. I know because he runs them with me or without me (I.e. more often than me) wherever did you get an idea that Shawn doesn't run dungeons?

Also, the fact that p/p is better than shortbow does not mean p/p is good. It just means shortbow is worse, and not more. P/p could definitely use some love. I seldom feel like using them, even though they're my secondary weapon set, and when I do, I just spam skill 3.

Sent from my Little Robot

[Fluffball]

He said he didn't in the ascended gear thread. I guess he meant he doesn't usually play them.

A lot of classes have weapon sets that aren't perfect but fill a role. I think it's ok that thieves don't have the most exciting ranged weapons in the game, because they have some of the best melee options. As was mentioned, guardians are in a similar boat. Scepter and staff are not fun for me, but I do at least acknowledge they fill certain roles. SB and P/P definitely fill roles, even spectacularly. SB does a lot of AoE even if it is insanely repetitive to play, that's why I stick to melee unless SB becomes required. And then I don't mind SB as much.

Also I have a bias against ranged weapons not having active game play. You run away shooting over your back, or if you're not targeted, just stand there and spam whatever is available. P/P is the most active ranged weapon set that comes to mind other than maybe some mesmer stuff I haven't delved too deeply in to.

Edit: Might I also suggest taking P/P off your weapon switch for general PvE? If you use them where the skills are actually useful you may like them more. P/P are your boss killer weapons and UL becomes the only viable skill for killing trash mobs.

I often use D/D for single target damage and S/P for AoE and control in general PvE. You may find that covers all your bases without forcing P/P in to a role they're not meant to cover.

[Alaris]

Fluffball, not sure why you think we can hit stuff over our backs with ranged weapons... you need to face foes with most attacks to hit them.

Many ranged weapons do have an active play, but it takes a ranged player to recognize the gameplay. I thought melee was boring, until I really started doing it more often... and then I understood that it was complex and rich too but in a different way. The skills to succeed at ranged or melee are quite different.

Anyway, don't want to start a rant... but I do want to agree with others that P/P is for single-target damage, and single-target damage is less efficient than AoE's in PvE... and melee is better than ranged in PvE as well in part because it's balanced in a way that you die less often, so the risk of melee is less and thus it works better than it should. Take the same weapons in WvW or sPvP or boss fights, and suddenly the bad ones become better.

[Fluffball]

Fluffball, not sure why you think we can hit stuff over our backs with ranged weapons... you need to face foes with most attacks to hit them.

It was just a dig at ranged gameplay. There is a certain sweet spot where you're technically strafing, but it looks like you're running away from the monster. If you run in a rectangle so they don't lose aggro, you don't have to do much more than autoattack. To be fair you could take a tank warrior with healing signet or whatever it's called and just stand in front of almost anything in PvE, not even bothering to move and autoattack something to death.

[Alaris]

Any build and gameplay is good at killing single underleveled foes.

When you start killing multiple foes at a time that are above your level with ranged combat, then we'll talk. I do that regularly with many professions.

[shawn]

I'm not dungeoning with my guardian, so 80 rares are more than fine.

>implying the guardian is an alt
>most things are done on thief.

I don't use p/p for general pve, because as was just mentioned, aoe is king. Sword/pistol and shortbow.
Dungeons might see sword/pistol, sword/dagger, dagger/dagger, or bow. Pretty sure cripple won us the Cliffside fractal after two people d/ced the other night, whereas a 1/4s daze is all but useless against most bosses there. In fact, I'd say all bosses. I remember having s/p on for the Blizzard fractal boss by accident, and daze/interrupts don't affect them. He still continued his Frostbite attack even though I dazed him without Defiant up, and it clearly said "Interrupted." But that boss was all "whateva, honey badger don't give a ****."

To be fair you could take a tank warrior with healing signet or whatever it's called and just stand in front of almost anything in PvE, not even bothering to move and autoattack something to death.

You can do that with a thief too. Source: doing dailies.

When you start killing multiple foes at a time that are above your level with ranged combat, then we'll talk. I do that regularly with many professions.

Pull many whelps. Drop poison well. Spam cluster bomb. Laugh.

[Alaris]

This is a problem with being level 80... you are at least high-level enough for just about everything, so you are not properly challenged by trash mobs. There's enough worthwhile bosses and veterans that can give me a solid solo experience, but those are far from each other.

Agreed Shawn, cripple is pretty useful for many fights. Whatever won us that fight, it wasn't me :)