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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    People flock to the highest rewards. Move the rewards around, and see people flock all over the place following them.
    Yes, of course I realize that, but I would have expected an RPG like this to attract a noticable number of players with a broader definition of "reward" than "maximum bling." I didn't spend many happy hours bashing headcrabs with a crowbar, launching satellites, starting reactors, etc. because Gordon Freeman would gets lots of bling for it. I didn't struggle up the 7,000 Steps to High Hrothgar because I thought the Greybeards would lay bling on my character, but because they would give me information about my character and place in the world.

    I can't be the only one who's curious as to how those Priory Explorers got stuck in those clams, and scratching that itch would be worth doing an event that doesn't have the best karma/effort ratio and highest number of bodies to loot. I can't be the only one who would feel some satisfaction and get a sense of accomplishment by keeping a boatload of risen from swarming all over the coast around Ft. Trinity.

    It is a shame that more people don't consider the content itself as part of the reward, so the only way to get them out there is to shift bling around.

    @Saint Troy: Many maps are "empty" in the sense that the low player population is spread too thinly across the map to easily join up for anything that can't be done solo. The nearest player may be a good distance away, working on their own goal, and not thrilled at the idea of traveling to help with yours, especially with no guarantee that enough will show up to get the job done.

    For example, my ele was working on map completion in Caledon Forest the other day. There was a champ krait patrolling around the skill point I needed and I couldn't quite solo him (ele is so sad underwater), so I let out a yell for help. One person responded and took a while to get there. When s/he saw the champ, s/he thought we couldn't do it with just two of us, so s/he hollered "run". Fortunately s/he didn't go far and came back when s/he saw that I was making a serious dent in the champ's health. Together we got it done without much trouble.

    Yet in many other cases I get no response. In Straits of Devastation, my guardian tried for close to two hours to get the skill point at the veteran Acolyte of Lyssa. I had done a couple of the other Acolytes solo, but the respawn rate around Lyssa was just too fast. A few times I just laid there dead for a while, watching to see if anyone else would come along and feel impelled to give me a rez, putting out an occasional query as to whether anyone was headed for the area. (With all the waypoints being contested, it was a long and frustrating run back each time I snuffed it.) No dice.

    It's a very different feel from the first couple of weeks, when the maps were swarming and everyone in the vicinity excitedly ran towards any new event that popped up. It's a very different feel from the next few weeks, when any given area of the map had a few people scattered around who would jump in on anything anyone started nearby, or would jump in whenever someone asked if anyone was interested in doing the nearby skill point. It's a very different feel from when you would find yourself near someone who was traveling in the same direction and you'd just start working together without a word, sometimes turning into a mini zerg as others started following along as well.

  2. #32
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    there is one thing i think is kinda sad, GW1 was active for so long and it really gave us so much to do, GW2 however is getting kinda boring because it's al the same drag we've seen countless times.
    they added a new island but it's barely useful, still the same filled with events done to death.

    i really hope they add cantha with a new profession and allot more to do, i want to see something new, something i have really never ever seen done properly.
    it's alive but cannot be living, it's dead but lives a mortal life.

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  3. #33
    It is as if ANET has a different philosophy when it comes to designing the pre-level 80s' area and the Orr-proper level 80's area. In lower level areas I can more or less go anywhere with impunity , alone.There are times when I have been chased by a mob and have to use the terrain to avoid them, but that is basic strategy where combat is involved. I hate it when in those Orr's areas, every time you step out of camp you need the running skill to get around, running around like a scared rabbit. I am suppose to be a hero, hopefully not a dumb one, who enjoys exploration, kill and loot, not running around like a scared, hunted animal and play hide and seek with the enemies.
    By the way, has anyone else receive ANET's compensation for the fiasco during the finale of that special one time event. My ranger finally got her loot today, thanks ANET.
    Last edited by Oliver; 07-12-2012 at 00:30.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
    Yes, of course I realize that, but I would have expected an RPG like this to attract a noticable number of players with a broader definition of "reward" than "maximum bling."
    I think reward-driven people are a large % of the population, and although we do have quite a few RPG'ers and completionists, they are probably too spread all over to really bump into each other.

    I've made 6-7 characters, and fully plan to play different storylines as much as I can, and do all the dungeons, etc... so I am getting a lot out of this game. But yeah, it would be fun if it were more evenly populated.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Cats don't realize that the dot is illusory. Once you let them catch it, they learn pretty quickly to ignore it. The reason they chase it is probably because their instinct tells them it might be an insect they might be able to eat.
    It's clear you don't have a cat. Cats are a lot smarter than that. They will follow the dot around, even after you catch them. Why? Because they like to hunt. And play. Give a mouse to a cat that is not hungry. The cat will still chase the mouse and play with it. It might eventually even let the mouse go if he's bored with it. Give a mouse to a dog that is not hungry. The dog will ignore the mouse. In fact, my cat will start to wind up as soon as I pick up the device that will generate the red dot... So, the game is reward enough in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by satenia View Post
    Does it matter? Having potentially missed a DE isn't reason enough to lure me back into a zone. DE's are not content on demand, if the zone holds no interest for me as such, I'm not gonna randomly walk around hoping for a DE to happen (or not). Also, waiting for an event equals (spawn) camping to me, something that is usually considered a bad thing.

    The closer you come to a maps completion, the less synergy it holds. As I said before, from a reward-driven point of view, moving on is only natural...
    And there's where humans differ. For most humans (exceptions are there, I'm one of them) reward is the most important goal in a game. No reward = no fun for a lot of people. Would you have done map completion if you didn't get any reward for it? So, no items, and no achievement?

    Yes, having to wait for an event is bad. Very bad. I think some areas simply need more small events. I've been spending some time in Fields of Ruin. It's a lovely area, but the only events I've come across are group events with very rarely a normal event which you can do with one or two people. And that makes a map feel empty. Not the lack of human players, I don't want hordes of those in my map. But the fact that the NPC's don't do anything. We simply need a lot more small DE's. DE's that won't take a lot of time, are not necessarily part of a large chain and start in the same area. Why only have one DE in an area where there are a dozen NPC's? Once that DE has started and finished, you must wait again for it to start again. Why not give another NPC a DE which can start even while that first DE is underway? The wife has this problem and the husband has that problem. One player will help the wife, while the other can help the husband...
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
    In all that time I have never once seen anyone doing anything about the bone ship when it appears off of Half Circle Cove, though I've gotten killed a number of times trying to do it alone. Did every other player in the game just happen to get there and do it in less than a month? Or are most people just skipping DEs that they don't think will be profitable enough?
    The Risen galleon? Where the catapults are firing poison clouds, and the Risen are swarming up out of the water, and you have a few minutes to destroy the galleon? I swear that event is bugged. Or the worst scaled event in the history of ever. There's a similar event in Sparkfly Fen to defend Fort Cadence. Shall we compare them?

    In Sparkfly, you have 15 minutes. The Risen show up in groups of two or three. But the highest number of Risen I've seen at once was about six. The worst condition you'll get is poison (though you'll get a lot of it). The whole event is marked as a group event.

    In the Straits, you have... I don't know, haven't ever seen the start. But I've never seen it over 7 minutes. The Risen show up in groups of five. Frequently. They burn, poison, and (if memory serves) stun you. The event is not marked as a group effort.

    I've tried the Straits galleon destruction multiple times, and never got anywhere close to getting the galleon even 20% down. I've started the Sparkfly event solo a few times. Got the ship damaged by 10 to 20 percent on my own, with lots of time to spare (and usually others show up to help). It seems like the weapons in Sparkfly are more effective, or the galleon has less "health" than the one in the Straits.

    So now I don't even try to help with the destruction of the Straits galleon. I'll pick off Risen around the catapults, but I can't get more than a single shot off to the galleon before I need to leave and heal up (or the catapult is destroyed, or both).

    It's not about the rewards, it's about the fact that it's a hopeless event.

    Honestly I've also tried to save Lone Post all by myself. I got slaughtered. I fought at Lone Post for more than twenty minutes for one event, with only four of us there. Several people died, but we were able to get them back up, and then... oh wait, we all died. I've helped Captain Guida back from her destroyed ship, and had to resurrect the captain and her crew multiple times because we took so long to kill something that some other thing respawned. And of course Guida wants to fight everything visible for a mile radius (then swims back to where she picked up the aggro initially, and oh hey, more things there to kill. Again).

    After experiencing several of these types of things, I am completely lacking interest in any of the events that may be taking place elsewhere in the zone. Priory explorers stuck in clams? Sucks to be them. Crashed helicopter? Eh. Need to protect the siege tank mecha warrior thing from Risen? Not my problem.

    I love the idea of learning the story behind these, and seeing what happens next, but the actual way the events work out quickly burned through whatever interest I might have had.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Rhonwyn View Post
    It's clear you don't have a cat. Cats are a lot smarter than that. They will follow the dot around, even after you catch them. Why? Because they like to hunt. And play. Give a mouse to a cat that is not hungry. The cat will still chase the mouse and play with it. It might eventually even let the mouse go if he's bored with it. Give a mouse to a dog that is not hungry. The dog will ignore the mouse. In fact, my cat will start to wind up as soon as I pick up the device that will generate the red dot... So, the game is reward enough in itself.



    And there's where humans differ. For most humans (exceptions are there, I'm one of them) reward is the most important goal in a game. No reward = no fun for a lot of people. Would you have done map completion if you didn't get any reward for it? So, no items, and no achievement?

    Yes, having to wait for an event is bad. Very bad. I think some areas simply need more small events. I've been spending some time in Fields of Ruin. It's a lovely area, but the only events I've come across are group events with very rarely a normal event which you can do with one or two people. And that makes a map feel empty. Not the lack of human players, I don't want hordes of those in my map. But the fact that the NPC's don't do anything. We simply need a lot more small DE's. DE's that won't take a lot of time, are not necessarily part of a large chain and start in the same area. Why only have one DE in an area where there are a dozen NPC's? Once that DE has started and finished, you must wait again for it to start again. Why not give another NPC a DE which can start even while that first DE is underway? The wife has this problem and the husband has that problem. One player will help the wife, while the other can help the husband...
    This might work. If an event is left alone for, let's say, 30 minutes and zero humans come by to help, the NPCs should send a force to finish the quest themselves. This would help players to complete these quests, even when there aren't any humans around.

    Quote Originally Posted by nkuvu View Post
    The Risen galleon? Where the catapults are firing poison clouds, and the Risen are swarming up out of the water, and you have a few minutes to destroy the galleon? I swear that event is bugged. Or the worst scaled event in the history of ever. There's a similar event in Sparkfly Fen to defend Fort Cadence. Shall we compare them?

    In Sparkfly, you have 15 minutes. The Risen show up in groups of two or three. But the highest number of Risen I've seen at once was about six. The worst condition you'll get is poison (though you'll get a lot of it). The whole event is marked as a group event.

    In the Straits, you have... I don't know, haven't ever seen the start. But I've never seen it over 7 minutes. The Risen show up in groups of five. Frequently. They burn, poison, and (if memory serves) stun you. The event is not marked as a group effort.

    I've tried the Straits galleon destruction multiple times, and never got anywhere close to getting the galleon even 20% down. I've started the Sparkfly event solo a few times. Got the ship damaged by 10 to 20 percent on my own, with lots of time to spare (and usually others show up to help). It seems like the weapons in Sparkfly are more effective, or the galleon has less "health" than the one in the Straits.

    So now I don't even try to help with the destruction of the Straits galleon. I'll pick off Risen around the catapults, but I can't get more than a single shot off to the galleon before I need to leave and heal up (or the catapult is destroyed, or both).

    It's not about the rewards, it's about the fact that it's a hopeless event.

    Honestly I've also tried to save Lone Post all by myself. I got slaughtered. I fought at Lone Post for more than twenty minutes for one event, with only four of us there. Several people died, but we were able to get them back up, and then... oh wait, we all died. I've helped Captain Guida back from her destroyed ship, and had to resurrect the captain and her crew multiple times because we took so long to kill something that some other thing respawned. And of course Guida wants to fight everything visible for a mile radius (then swims back to where she picked up the aggro initially, and oh hey, more things there to kill. Again).

    After experiencing several of these types of things, I am completely lacking interest in any of the events that may be taking place elsewhere in the zone. Priory explorers stuck in clams? Sucks to be them. Crashed helicopter? Eh. Need to protect the siege tank mecha warrior thing from Risen? Not my problem.

    I love the idea of learning the story behind these, and seeing what happens next, but the actual way the events work out quickly burned through whatever interest I might have had.

    Yeah no one ever does Ash Horizon. But I found a trick to solo it. You see that cliff just north of Ocean's Gullet? If you jump into the water around there, there is a sweet spot where there isn't any risen that you can shoot down the Gullet at range.

    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File...ly_Fen_map.jpg
    Last edited by CHIPS; 07-12-2012 at 10:20.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Rhonwyn View Post
    And there's where humans differ. For most humans (exceptions are there, I'm one of them) reward is the most important goal in a game. No reward = no fun for a lot of people. Would you have done map completion if you didn't get any reward for it? So, no items, and no achievement?
    Items and recognition are not the only forms of reward, though. I would certainly do map completion without any additional reward just for the fun of exploring and finding the sights the devs stuck in odd corners of the map. There is no achievement or items to be had for exploring in Skyrim, for example, but I've spent many hours mountain-goating around the place and discovering remarkable things. In GW1, I would have skipped the scraping if it weren't for the achievement, but having one's nose pressed against a rock wall is hardly necessary to exploring, which I would have done anyway. Remember what a thrill it was to find the Secret Garden in Pre, back in the days before Nick existed and the place had no purpose other than to be hidden and beautiful? There were no items there and no achievement, but it was worth finding for its own sake.

    I'm sure Alaris is right in suggesting that those who enjoy intangible (or more intangible than virtual bling, anyway) rewards are out there, but just spread too thinly to bump into each other very often.

    @nkuvu: Yes, that's the event I meant. Seven minutes to bring down the ship using one catapult because all the other weapons on the beach don't have the range to reach it. The catapult does pathetically-low damage (something like 262 per hit with a long recharge) and the ship has enormous health. I suspect the only way to win the event is to have enough people to control the beach and make darned sure the catapult never has any downtime, because the NPCs just can't deal with all the incoming risen. It might also be necessary to have some people swim out and attack the ship directly. It may not be bugged, just set up to be very difficult to win.

    I know what you mean about Captain Guida, and also the quaggan rescue in the same area. There are just very few events anywhere in the zone that do not demand a group, even if they aren't marked as group events, and even those that can be soloed are still better done with a small group. But I think the events are only hopeless if there just aren't enough people in the area willing to drop everything and join in when one starts. Many of them become downright easy for a group of five or fewer.

    People are skipping these events not because they're hopeless but because they can find other events that they perceive as being more rewarding. No chest for taking down the champ giant? Well, then, the heck with him, we're going to go take down the champ risen pirate instead.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Rhonwyn View Post
    It's clear you don't have a cat.
    I've had plenty of cats and dogs. And a kid. And hamsters, reptiles, fishes, a porcupine...

    I agree that the game is reward in itself especially for younger animals, including cats and dogs. But eventually they hit their lazy age and will ignore the dot once they know it cannot be caught.

    Here's a question... if a game had no rewards, would people still play it? If GW2 let you get all armors and skills and all the stuff from the beginning, would people even play it?

    I think part of the problem is that once you start people on a reward schedule, it's very hard to keep them without maintaining that. But if there is no reward schedule to begin with, they can enjoy a game and not worry about rewards. Problem is you won't get those reward-driven players to drop their other game and switch over to yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIPS View Post
    If an event is left alone for, let's say, 30 minutes and zero humans come by to help, the NPCs should send a force to finish the quest themselves.
    I like this idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
    I'm sure Alaris is right in suggesting that those who enjoy intangible (or more intangible than virtual bling, anyway) rewards are out there, but just spread too thinly to bump into each other very often.
    Thankfully we now have lfg website we can use to find people like that.... anyone tried to group up this way for exploring maps?
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    I've had plenty of cats and dogs. And a kid. And hamsters, reptiles, fishes, a porcupine...

    I agree that the game is reward in itself especially for younger animals, including cats and dogs. But eventually they hit their lazy age and will ignore the dot once they know it cannot be caught.
    Then I wonder when the lazy age of my cat will arrive... Cats are special in that they will hunt when they're not hungry. They don't care for the reward, the hunt is reward enough for them. And I'm not just talking about those little monsters in our homes, but also the big ones out in the wild. Humans are more like dogs, who like to hunt but only if the hunt will reward them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Here's a question... if a game had no rewards, would people still play it? If GW2 let you get all armors and skills and all the stuff from the beginning, would people even play it?
    No rewards at all? I might like it...
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