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  1. #1
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    Warrior vs Dervish (vs Assassin)

    Intro:
    I'm not a newbie here, but I still feel that I am a newbie with these 3 classes. So I am thinking about learning more about them, the general melee role, possibly starting a new character for them.

    I do have a Warrior and a Derv already, but they never got much further than completing a nm campaign each, if even. As everything goes in nm, I don't feel that I have learned to play them. I plan on using them mainly for PvE.

    I put sin in parentheses though because (1) I don't care much for perma, it's too OP for my taste and I wouldn't enjoy using it, and (2) I don't care much for the look of sins. However, I still want to learn to do dagger combos, use shadowstep, and learn about other sin skills.

    Questions:

    Mysticism: I never fully understood it. Does it work on all enchants, even those of secondary profession? Like do you get life & energy back when monk or ele or sin enchants end? Does it work if someone else casts it on you? What if you end the enchant, either by re-casting it, or by using skills that remove enchants from yourself? What about foes using enchant removals? How important is mysticism overall?

    Tanking vs damage vs other functions. I know these three can do the roles. But any added info would be good, especially standard tanking or damage builds. Also, other functions that the profs can support would be nice to know, I tend to like variety.

    Survivor: yes, I like the title. Any advice specific to warrior or derv or melee in general would be welcome. I have 3 LS's and helped write the survivor wiki page, so I know the standard advice for non-melee chars... I don't plan on using a bow until LS, which will put me at considerably higher risk.

    Learning: yes, back to the main point. I want to learn about all 3 profs. In that spirit, how well and which would be best to explore all 3 profs at once? I imagine the derv would be best to D/A or D/W because of high energy... W/D or W/A would be bad to learn any aspect of D or A that is energy-intensive... right? Specifically, I would like to learn (1) all melee weapons, including dagger combos, (2) derv enchants, (3) sin's attributes, (4) tactics, and (5) melee skills that transfer well to other melee profs. Keep in mind that I think the best place to practice all that is late-game nm...

    Thanks a lot... I know it's a lot of Q's... But I feel that pvx and wiki are not sufficient for all these...
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  2. #2
    Mr Zebra, you need a primary sin to get a feel of playing a sin. You can't do that on a D/A or a W/A, because you 1) have more armor 2) have the wrong primary attribute 3) have the wrong amount of energy and energy regen.

  3. #3
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    Actually, warriors are the weakest due to numerous overpowered skills for both the other classes.

    Scythes are insanely powerful on both sins and dervishes due to either perma avatars and AoHM and due to Critical agility and insane crit rates.

    Don't get me wrong, warriors are by no means bad, just not nearly as good as the other two.

    Even if you choose to not use a scyther for an assasins daggers aren't bad either.
    The old staple Lead-Off-Death Blossom (Moebious) can still do a ton of damage.

    Taking damage isn't really a problem at all.
    Dervishes have Armor of Sanctity and Conviction combined with avatars.

    Assasins can bring CAgility and CDefenses if they feel endangered.

    Not to mention both classes can easily abuse SY! if you feel like it.

    Warriors just don't take that much damage to begin with, and you can just micro some prot on yourself while SY! keeps the rest safe.


    Mysticism on it's own really doesn't do a lot.
    It mostly gives access to some very powerful skills, and helps a bit on energy management since you're probably getting prot and damage support in form of enchantments.
    It compares to strength nicely, doesn't do much on it's own except add a little bit to the core of the class and hold a lot of good skills.

    Mixing the classes gives ample opportunities.
    Both dervishes and assasins can use their weapons pretty well inbetween, with scythe being the big winner for obvious reasons.

    Warriors can use scythes decently with Warriors Endurance, but daggers are kinda obsolete, as is secondary assasin in general.

    The warrior weapons aren't that good on the other characters, but warrior secondary gives access to some strong party support in tactics with adrenaline as a free source.

    Meh.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Mysticism: I never fully understood it. Does it work on all enchants, even those of secondary profession? Like do you get life & energy back when monk or ele or sin enchants end? Does it work if someone else casts it on you? What about foes using enchant removals? How important is mysticism overall?
    Mysticism triggers on all of the above. It does not trigger when you (or anyone else) cast an enchantment that has not ended, but other than that, it pretty much triggers always when any enchantment ends on you.

    On how important it is: the healing is negligible. The energy gain, in other hand, is a very strong asset, so that's the point of the attribute. In the end, though, it's just one kind of energy management; an assassin could likely have the same thing with Critical Strikes.

    Tanking vs damage vs other functions. I know these three can do the roles. But any added info would be good, especially standard tanking or damage builds. Also, other functions that the profs can support would be nice to know, I tend to like variety.
    Scythes are overpowered; they can hit on AoE, they have very strong damage, and they have very strong attack skills. However, you don't need to be a dervish to use a scythe; Assassins relying on Critical Strikes and a scythe are somewhat popular, given how the critical damage of strikes is very high, and it's not uncommon to see Warriors using scythes together with Strength (there's an elite skill that returns energy, which can be used even with the slightly energy intensive scythe skills). Those two professions can use scythes as well as (or slightly worse, or slightly better, depends of who you're asking) Dervishes.

    Some dervish skills allow the character to be a tank, but those skills are less in number than those of warriors, and (of course) far weaker than Shadow Form. If you would like to tank with H/H, a dervish character could do it; if you plan to tank in a PUG, good luck convincing a team to accept you, not because you would be unable to tank, but because they would not believe you would tank as well as a warrior or an assassin.

    There are many dervish builds filling different roles, even a Mystic Healer build meant to work as a healer. However, truth be said the thing dervishes to best is Big Damage - for everything else, there's likely someone who could do it better.

    A strong problem in the profession is the lack of a knock down skills. Less of a problem in PvE, but still, when compared with all the ways assassins and warriors can knock enemies down...

    Survivor: yes, I like the title. Any advice specific to warrior or derv or melee in general would be welcome.
    Warrior. A dervish has more health and some protective enchantmens, but those are unreliable in some areas; the first time someone casts Shatter Enchantment on your main defensive enchantment, you'll know what I mean.

    Learning: yes, back to the main point. I want to learn about all 3 profs. In that spirit, how well and which would be best to explore all 3 profs at once? I imagine the derv would be best to D/A or D/W because of high energy... W/D or W/A would be bad to learn any aspect of D or A that is energy-intensive... right?
    IMO, there isn't really much to learn about dervish enchantments, just when it's best to use them thanks to the casting time and aftercast. I think you could try going A/D and A/W to learn more about shadow step and the dagger attacks, with a bit of learning about what it takes to be a warrior.

    If you were to learn anything, though, I would suggest to learn playing as a warrior. You should even try some light PvP to get to truly understand what a warrior does; they're the hardest profession to learn, IMO.

    Erasculio

  5. #5
    I'd also suggest looking up this on guru.
    The general consensus there is that dervishes are currently the single most underpowered class in the game, with assassins being godly damage dealers who are only outclassed by warriors WHEN you you have a full team supporting them. Which means that if you going to be a h/h player - assassins should come on top.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiala View Post
    Mr Zebra, you need a primary sin to get a feel of playing a sin.
    1) Mr Snuffles is a cat.

    2) I understand the armor part...

    Quote Originally Posted by Simply Kedde View Post
    Mysticism on it's own really doesn't do a lot.

    Mixing the classes gives ample opportunities.

    The warrior weapons aren't that good on the other characters
    Thx for all the good info.

    I already explored all warrior weapons while playing a war, so I guess missing out on that wouldn't be so bad...

    Quote Originally Posted by Erasculio View Post
    Mysticism triggers on all of the above. It does not trigger when you (or anyone else) cast an enchantment that has not ended, but other than that, it pretty much triggers always when any enchantment ends on you.
    Ah, thx. That is good to know.

    When playing D the first time around, I kept re-casting before enchants would end, and I would not play around much with non-derv enchants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erasculio View Post
    Scythes are overpowered
    Yeah, I keep hearing that. But I'm less concerned about OP'ed... are they fun to use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erasculio View Post
    Some dervish skills allow the character to be a tank, but those skills are less in number than those of warriors, and (of course) far weaker than Shadow Form.
    I've seen some good tanking from dervs in endgame NF. I just don't know how they do it... Besides, I'd do most of my tanking on my way to LS and then in alliance outings... I don't think tanking is the right way to play melee, unless the situation asks for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erasculio View Post
    A strong problem in the profession is the lack of a knock down skills.
    I guess I'll look up the PvE skills for that! KD'ing seems to be something that pro-melee-ers learn to do well, so that needs to be on my bar at least some of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erasculio View Post
    the first time someone casts Shatter Enchantment on your main defensive enchantment, you'll know what I mean.
    Since I'm working with the intent of a survivor here, are there ways to protect against that? Are there areas I should be on the lookout for that?

    I guess Oni's would totally stop me from re-casting enchants, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erasculio View Post
    If you were to learn anything, though, I would suggest to learn playing as a warrior. (...) They're the hardest profession to learn, IMO.
    How much learning can I do in PvE, right? I keep a PvP char on my account, so I might do some "casual" PvP with a warrior to get the basics...
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  7. #7
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    The general consensus there is that dervishes are currently the single most underpowered class in the game,
    I lol'd.
    People are retarded.

    Hey, it's not godly for farming, but for general play it's insane.

  8. #8
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    I play games for fun, not profit.

    A build that lets me bypass the game is boring imo. Farming is something I've done, and at times enjoyed, but I don't consider it to be my main passion in GW.

    I have most fun doing missions using good but not OPed builds, where I actually have to play well to succeed.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    1) Mr Snuffles is a cat.

    2) I understand the armor part...


    But the previous one was a zebra, and I prefer the zebra.

    Do you mean you don't understand two and three? Since the armor one has the least difference between dervs and assasins of the points I mentioned:P

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Simply Kedde View Post
    I lol'd.
    People are retarded.

    Hey, it's not godly for farming, but for general play it's insane.
    In PvE?
    Where Avatars will convert your damage type to elemental leaving you out of the insanity that are Orders, MoP and Barbs?
    Where nothing can compare to Critical Agility?
    Or WA?


    Probably the best thing you can do on a Dervish is spam Orders.

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