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I must've missed the memo...why on earth would anyone "hide" energy?
Opponents can't "see" if you have energy or not, not even your teammates can see if you have energy or not.
Aiiane: then why change it at ALL if it makes no difference to PvP and have it claimed it was for PvP balance?
Back to my question in this post: I cannot fathom why someone would try to "hide" energy in a game where your energy cannot be seen by enemies...why hide it?
wm.
Um, hiding energy means E-Denial Mes can't get you? If you had 12 energy and a Mes tried to E-surge you for 12, you swtich your focus to the shield so you lose 12 energy before the Surge hits, you can't go to negative energy from the Surge. Swtich back and you still have your 12 energy, took no damage and they just wasted a skill.
Works for Debiliting Shot from a Ranger too.
Um, hiding energy means E-Denial Mes can't get you? If you had 12 energy and a Mes tried to E-surge you for 12, you swtich your focus to the shield so you lose 12 energy before the Surge hits, you can't go to negative energy from the Surge. Swtich back and you still have your 12 energy, took no damage and they just wasted a skill.
Works for Debiliting Shot from a Ranger too.
Agreed. I have used my candy shield in PVP many times.
I must've missed the memo...why on earth would anyone "hide" energy?
Opponents can't "see" if you have energy or not, not even your teammates can see if you have energy or not.
Back to my question in this post: I cannot fathom why someone would try to "hide" energy in a game where your energy cannot be seen by enemies...why hide it?
wm.
As DarkZeal somewhat explained, it's not "hiding" in a visual sense, but rather in the sense that energy which you don't currently have, can't be manipulated by opponents.
The important factor here is that when you increase or decrease your maximum energy, your current energy also changes. In addition, you can go into negative energy, and regenerate back up to zerobutyou cannot be drained below zero energy by another player. What this means is that anytime you are in negative energy, you are regenerating energy and there is nothing your opponents can do about it. So, consider two scenarios:
Scenario A:
Monk has 40 base max energy, 10 current energy, normal weapons.
Mesmer drains them for 10 energy.
Monk tries to cast a spell, but can't.
Monk ends up with 0 energy.
Scenario B:
Monk is on energy-hiding weaponset, with 30 base max energy, 0 current energy.
Mesmer attempts to drain them for 10 energy, drains 0 (because there's none to drain).
Monk swaps to higher-energy weaponset, now at 40 max energy, and current energy also increases by 10.
Monk casts 10 energy spell.
Monk swaps back to energy-hiding weaponset.
Monk ends up with 0 energy.
Exact same end, exact same starting energy - but the monk in scenario B got the spell off. That is what "energy hiding" is about in Guild Wars PvP. The best PvP monks are ones that can operate normally on the lowest amount of maximum energy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemountain
Aiiane: then why change it at ALL if it makes no difference to PvP and have it claimed it was for PvP balance?
I never said it didn't make a difference - I said that the argument that it does or doesn't make a difference is a pointless one because it favors neither side.
Again, the change is due to the principle of the matter: if you're going to stick to a design methodology, then having little places where it doesn't hold true stands out like a sore thumb.
As DarkZeal somewhat explained, it's not "hiding" in a visual sense, but rather in the sense that energy which you don't currently have, can't be manipulated by opponents.
The important factor here is that when you increase or decrease your maximum energy, your current energy also changes. In addition, you can go into negative energy, and regenerate back up to zerobutyou cannot be drained below zero energy by another player. What this means is that anytime you are in negative energy, you are regenerating energy and there is nothing your opponents can do about it.
I know about energy debt...I only play casters myself...I'm not a newb. I was questioning WHY you would do it, not how it works.
The thing of it is, though, that there are a few things here that don't lend to PvP play at all:
The skin is unique enough that opposing e-denial and e-removers will know to wait for the switch BACK to cast. It's a dead giveaway that you're "hiding" energy. In PvE, I've had opposing mesmer mobs wait well beyond the recharge time of hexes just to cast when I have the energy to be damaged.
There's a delay in switching weaps in-game that can be fatal when applied to monks.
There are far more numerous, and better/max, ways to "hide" energy. I had quite a collection of -5 energy focii at one point...OR using an inscribable focus with 2 AC mods (one inherent, one inscribed).
This discussion is focusing on the least optimal, most sub-par, absolutely worst option scenario for offhands in competitive PvP matchups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiiane
I never said it didn't make a difference - I said that the argument that it does or doesn't make a difference is a pointless one because it favors neither side.
Then why make the change at all? Something had to have happened to force them to act. People just don't change spontaneously, on a whim.
If it makes no difference either way, put it back or don't have changed at all.
If it does make a difference, why can no one actually quantify it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aiiane
if you're going to stick to a design methodology, then having little places where it doesn't hold true stands out like a sore thumb.
I 100% agree with you on this: CONSISTANCY is best.
I just get...perturbed...when I hear things that are along the lines of "stick it to the PvE folks again...they're less important than us l33t PvP roxxors".
I know about energy debt...I only play casters myself...I'm not a newb. I was questioning WHY you would do it, not how it works.
The thing of it is, though, that there are a few things here that don't lend to PvP play at all:
The skin is unique enough that opposing e-denial and e-removers will know to wait for the switch BACK to cast. It's a dead giveaway that you're "hiding" energy. In PvE, I've had opposing mesmer mobs wait well beyond the recharge time of hexes just to cast when I have the energy to be damaged.
There's a delay in switching weaps in-game that can be fatal when applied to monks.
There are far more numerous, and better/max, ways to "hide" energy. I had quite a collection of -5 energy focii at one point...OR using an inscribable focus with 2 AC mods (one inherent, one inscribed).
This discussion is focusing on the least optimal, most sub-par, absolutely worst option scenario for offhands in competitive PvP matchups.
Obviously, a good number of players disagree with you, because a large number of players use negative energy sets. In the tradeoff of visibility versus stats... stats generally win out. Most mesmers won't wait every single time to watch your weaponsets (yes, the best ones will, but they're few and far between), and a questionable advantage in subtlety is overruled by a direct and constant advantage in stats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemountain
Then why make the change at all? Something had to have happened to force them to act. People just don't change spontaneously, on a whim.
Yes and no. There had to have been some general motivating factor, but it doesn't necessarily need to be related singularly and directly to the item in question. Perhaps ANet simply asked their testers to let them know if they found anything "out of whack" with the usual standards, and one of them happened to mention it in a recent test run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemountain
If it makes no difference either way, put it back or don't have changed at all.
If it does make a difference, why can no one actually quantify it?
It has been quantified. I can easily quantify it by saying it's a 2 AL difference, and thus a 4-5% reduction in damage taken - but if that's not quantified enough, you could see this reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whitemountain
I 100% agree with you on this: CONSISTANCY is best.
I just get...perturbed...when I hear things that are along the lines of "stick it to the PvE folks again...they're less important than us l33t PvP roxxors".
And this smelled to high heaven of that.
wm.
Well, comments to that regard generally stem from the fact that consistency is a key aspect to balanced PvP, versus simply a "nice thing to have" in PvE. No one is "less important", per say, but it's simply a fact of life that PvP is a lot more sensitive to small changes: if your PvE experience gets slightly harder or easier, it doesn't completely ruin the game - but if PvP gets out of balance, it quickly spirals out of control.
So while yes, I dislike those who put others down on the basis of the style of gaming which they prefer, the gist of their statements (although definitely not the tone or spirit) is based in reality.
Just because it has existed for a while is not an argument against change. ANet has been steadily reducing the number of differences between the two types, whether it be in removing items like the Fiery Flamespitter or the Nolani wand, or changing the stats of items such as the holiday shields.
whoa, whoa, whoa, did I miss a memo somewhere. Did they remove the Fiery Flamespitter? I love that axe. I'm not near my gaming machine so I cannot check. When did this happen?
<appoligies> sorry did not mean to get off topic </appoligies>
whoa, whoa, whoa, did I miss a memo somewhere. Did they remove the Fiery Flamespitter? I love that axe. I'm not near my gaming machine so I cannot check. When did this happen?
<appoligies> sorry did not mean to get off topic </appoligies>
It just seems odd that these fairly unique weapons had to be nerfed like this.
For the most part, the only thing they're good for is for non fighter based units.
I like the design of the hassen's shell, and the peppermint shield. Not so thrilled about gingerbread man shield, and it's my feeling when doused with water, it should disintigrate. but that's just me.
The shield's stats made them a bit more usefull then the average top end no req, and seriously, I don't see them as game breaking.
Still, what's done is done. I don't expect them to get changed back.
What would have been NICE would be for anet to leave those in, and then only offer 'fixed' versions this year. Make them the new HOD sword as it were. Kinda like they did with candycanes. (starting to regret dumping the 250 batch for 100k now)
I don't consider this anything major, just a little... disapointing.
What would have been NICE would be for anet to leave those in, and then only offer 'fixed' versions this year.
That gets them the worst of both worlds, though - there are still unbalanced items in the game, but people also complain if they can't get them. Better to simply stick with either they're available to everyone or not available at all. That's been GW's guiding principle in regards to item stats from the beginning - any time they've deviated from that, they've ended up changing it to fit into line with the rest eventually, or changing the rest to bring them up to par.
That gets them the worst of both worlds, though - there are still unbalanced items in the game, but people also complain if they can't get them. Better to simply stick with either they're available to everyone or not available at all. That's been GW's guiding principle in regards to item stats from the beginning - any time they've deviated from that, they've ended up changing it to fit into line with the rest eventually, or changing the rest to bring them up to par.
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