Racial Abilities

Originally Posted by Simply Kedde

Being outnumbered being good or bad depends on how it is achieved. (...)

If it on the other hand is because of a clever trick outmaneuvering people to put them in a bad position, then it's good.

This is exactly what I wanted to say, but didn't.

Alaris Anet clearly stated GW 2 will have no quest marks above NPC's, it will mostly events and mission driven.

I'm sure that Anet will find solutions to those waiting periods in persistence areas. We will hear more about game mechanics by the end of the year or early next year.

I can't wait to have more solid info.

Originally Posted by Skyy High

stuff i agree with

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Originally Posted by raspberry jam

It's flat out unintuitive for there to be no difference whatsoever between a big burly male warrior and a slim short female warrior, yet in GW1 there is no difference. It's flat out unintuitive for there to be no difference whatsoever between Jora and a human warrior; yet there is no difference. It's flat out unintuitive for there to be no difference whatsoever between the spellcasting abilities of a superintelligent asura and a teenage centaur; yet Vekk and Zhed are identical apart from the skin.
Those conventions can, could, was tossed aside because they don't matter in the least; all that matters is making a good game.

just because GW1 races were all the same doesnt mean it should be that way in GW2. the opportunity to change and improve is there, so take it.

Oooor... You could make races mechanically the same, fill in the gaps with lore babble (that's what it's there for. Let's say for example, not that I like this but let's pretend for the sake of argument, charr has a bear form giving +health and +damage, but charr has the Rage Of Burning Blood ability which happens to have the exact same stats, whereas sylvari have the ability to turn their bodies into wood, giving them a coincidental +health and +damage boost. Everybody are now happy since they all have their Ursan Blessing), and never need to switch anything because of discrimination - meaning that if you want to play that asura warrior, that norn monk, that human elementalist, you can.

most of the sense of uniqueness of turning into a nornbear would be lost if the sylvari could turn into a tree and be just as strong down to the exact same stats. once the novelty wears off and this is realized, id be pretty annoyed as both the norn and the sylvari. thankfully it most probably wont be that way (lol srsly).

other races could also have forms, but they can be balanced in different ways. one could have +dmg, one has +hp, one has natural regen, one has dodge chance, etc. anything is possible with raw numbers. making them all the same except different graphics is just lazy.

and individual racial attack skills should definitely be unique. i dont want "Bear Hug" to have an equivalent "Leaf Caress" or some lameness like that.

Most of some people's expected uniqueness.

Just because some people have their mind set in stone for how races are meant to be different from previous games, it doesn't mean it should be that way in GW2. The opportunity to change and improve it is there, so take it.

Originally Posted by Alaris

I think mapping out is not nearly as problematic as mapping in. Aside from losing a possible kill...

I think the argument went something like, you'll want a destination node close to the entry portal of the PvP area, so you can get there quickly if you want to PvP, but that also means that you'll be able to map to that from the PvP area, which would mean you could essentially respawn with full health at the insertion point at any time, an unlimited amount of times.
Of course, you just need to add some lag at insertion (say, you have to run through a very long tunnel or something, adding at least one minute to the process, or just make the area so large that the action is a good distance away from the insertion point - which it would need to be anyway, in order to prevent spawn killing-like issues.

Unless it works like such, you cannot reward kills, since it would be too easy to deprive the enemy team any points by just mapping out whenever you are in a difficult position.

Originally Posted by Alaris

The point is to design the task to reduce competition, and encourage cooperation. Take Jade Quarry for example... capping shrines & protecting the juggernauts & killing the turtles... those are things that more people can work together, towards getting a better rate of acquisition and lower rate of loss.

And again, 100 people defending a caravan from bandits who come 3-4 at a time isn't really an ideal situation.

Originally Posted by Alaris

I like your ideas about ambushes, that'd be neat to have in a game... but sometimes you need goals. Like clearing a path from ambushes, or taking out a boss (and each time someone or a team triggers the quest, he gets a different boss), or gathering resources (at a mine so everyone can use the same node).

Yeah, goals. But they should be within instances.
And please, no boss-spitting grief machine. I don't want to be calmly playing and then get overwhelmed by 59 bosses just because some joker thought it was funny to take new quests over and over.
Or maybe you mean that they should spawn at different locations. Then you once again have the same commodity problem - but this time with spawn nodes.

The problem isn't the environment, but that there's other people in it.

Originally Posted by ShindeKudasai

once the novelty wears off and this is realized, id be pretty annoyed as both the norn and the sylvari. thankfully it most probably wont be that way (lol srsly).

other races could also have forms, but they can be balanced in different ways. one could have +dmg, one has +hp, one has natural regen, one has dodge chance, etc. anything is possible with raw numbers. making them all the same except different graphics is just lazy.

Nah, it's not lazy. What is lazy is to carbon copy templated races from other fantasy settings. But I agree, the racial skills will not be as I suggest. I disagree on the "thankfully" part. They will either be rather carefully balanced at launch, a balance which will deteriorate soon afterward, or, which is more likely, they will be utterly insignificant meaning they are fundamentally a waste of dev time, confusing to players, and encouraging needless discrimination.

Both of these solutions are awful and I'd rather not see any racial differences at all.

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

which would mean you could essentially respawn with full health at the insertion point at any time, an unlimited amount of times.

Easy to fix, but important to keep in mind during design.

If you map out, you should get a dishonor-like thingy that prevents your from re-entering right away. (there may be better ways to fix this, but here's one idea)

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

you cannot reward kills, since it would be too easy to deprive the enemy team any points by just mapping out whenever you are in a difficult position.

Map out on a delay? Or map out while under attack = automatic point?

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

And again, 100 people defending a caravan from bandits who come 3-4 at a time isn't really an ideal situation.

Yes. But that may be a tasty invite for a dragon...

Actually, if you have just one caravan protected, then the other ones get attacked. Thereby promoting that the 100 people split between all caravans.

Agreed with the general idea that balancing crowds in persistent areas is a pain.

[quote=raspberry jam;5583366]Yeah, goals. But they should be within instances.[/quotes]

Some goals could work in persistent areas... which I guess would be the main point of my presentation here.

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

And please, no boss-spitting grief machine.

lol...

If you see a monster spawn, the game is implemented wrong. That is all I have to say about this.

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

Nah, it's not lazy. What is lazy is to carbon copy templated races from other fantasy settings.

I have less of a problem with copying good ideas from other games.

But the racial bonuses has always been a terrible idea, that somehow got copied and became mainstream. If ANet can fix it, great.

And to be honest, it's pretty lazy to give +1 strength to a race that is big, +1 intelligence to a race that is small, and +1 wisdom to a race that is old.

While in PvP, mapping out takes 5 seconds; during this time you take quadruple damage and have your armor reduced to 0. Mapping out isn't a problem.

Getting to where the action is might be, but if you're allowed to teleport to any of your friends in a non-instanced area with a cooldown on the ability of say, 5-15 minutes, again with a cast time of say 5 seconds during which your friend takes double damage, I don't really see much potential for PvP abuse.

Also, when the goal of a sudden event is to protect a certain object it should be doable to scan the area around the object for PC's and provide appropriate buffs to the event objective if necessarry.

Akirai, that sounds good. Apart from the friend taking double damage, lol. He should be able to reject the mapping in that case.

Originally Posted by Alaris

Map out on a delay? Or map out while under attack = automatic point?

Just stay away from direcly rewarding kills. Instead, a death should make the team get a worse position; the scoring itself should not rely on kills, since well, there isn't really any reason for it. That's how most forms of PvP in GW1 work - anything from Fort Aspenwood to GvG works like that. The only exceptions are Alliance Battle and the kill count map in RA.

Originally Posted by Alaris

Yes. But that may be a tasty invite for a dragon...

Now we're talking! Random events triggered by mass player behaviour! If there are 100 players in an area... Give them their match!

Originally Posted by Alaris

lol...

If you see a monster spawn, the game is implemented wrong. That is all I have to say about this.

I agree. I devoted a lengthy post to it but while repopulating the world is always a problem, that wasn't what I meant. Someone could take a huge bunch of quests before I get to wherever the bosses spawn. And they'll be there, waiting for me. Maybe you can't take more than one quest at a time, and the boss unspawns if you abandon? But then you might run into said boss without having the quest, and maybe he'd unspawn before your very eyes. Or worse, you might kill him, leaving the (in this case) innocent quest-taker quite shafted.

Originally Posted by Alaris

I have less of a problem with copying good ideas from other games.

But the racial bonuses has always been a terrible idea, that somehow got copied and became mainstream. If ANet can fix it, great.

And to be honest, it's pretty lazy to give +1 strength to a race that is big, +1 intelligence to a race that is small, and +1 wisdom to a race that is old.

Right, right: back on topic. I don't have a problem with good ideas like auction house and a mail system. And I don't mind races being different - at least I don't mind it that much. But it's a whole other thing when that difference becomes the identity of the character.

Of course, the ability to turn into a bear at will is pretty defining, at least in a combat situation.

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

Just stay away from direcly rewarding kills.

Sounds reasonable.

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

Now we're talking! Random events triggered by mass player behaviour! If there are 100 players in an area... Give them their match!

Well, the main thing in persistent areas is that density will vary a lot! You need to implement your game to either (a) find ways to disperse your population more evenly, or (b) adapt content to population density.

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

But then you might run into said boss without having the quest, and maybe he'd unspawn before your very eyes. Or worse, you might kill him, leaving the (in this case) innocent quest-taker quite shafted.

I would like to refer you to a previous post of mine...

Originally Posted by Alaris

But boss hunts work terribad in persistent areas. These should be reserved for instances.

Originally Posted by raspberry jam

Right, right: back on topic. I don't mind races being different - at least I don't mind it that much. But it's a whole other thing when that difference becomes the identity of the character.

There's been some interesting ideas on how to balance that in this thread, and it's not clear which of those would actually work or get abused or cause discrimination. I have to adopt an attitude of wait and see. I think if anyone can do a good job at it, it's ANet.

In an ideal world, the racial differences would be evident from the get go, would create a somewhat different gameplay experience for different races, would be balanced such as to not create discrimination (either in endgame, PvP, or income).

Originally Posted by Akirai Annuvil

While in PvP, mapping out takes 5 seconds; during this time you take quadruple damage and have your armor reduced to 0. Mapping out isn't a problem.

Getting to where the action is might be, but if you're allowed to teleport to any of your friends in a non-instanced area with a cooldown on the ability of say, 5-15 minutes, again with a cast time of say 5 seconds during which your friend takes double damage, I don't really see much potential for PvP abuse.
--

High cast-time and easily interrupted (any damage, whether blocked or not) should be enough to deal with teleporting.
In PvP areas there should be some kind of bases where you can teleport. Directly teleporting to a friend might be problematic (like get behind enemy lines and "spawn" huge amount of allies).

Regards quests, there could be large ring around the boss. When you move in, game will be instanced and the actual quest loads (and gets balanced accordingly).


EDIT: Uh well, just looked at the topic name... Let's see if I can write something about on-topic.

Racial differences are fine if I get access to each of them eventually. Like after main storyline or "racial quests".
Beat the game, unlock the fun.